[pandorabots-general] Forum to advance the science
ofAI(includingthe resumption of standard setting activities)
Anne Kootstra
anne at aiml.info
Thu May 18 14:07:56 PDT 2006
I agree with Brian, lets leave the past where it is. For those interested
they can read the posts for themselves in the 2002 archive. This need not go
any further in a public forum.
Kind regards,
Anne Kootstra
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Hoecht [mailto:brian_hoecht at msn.com]
>Sent: donderdag 18 mei 2006 17:50
>To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
>Subject: FW: [pandorabots-general] Forum to advance the science
>ofAI(includingthe resumption of standard setting activities)
>
>Noel,
>
>There is obviously a deep rift between the you and Dr. Wallace.
>
>I'm sorry both of you have now had more laundry washed in this
>public forum than either of you probably wished or intended.
>
>Hopefully airing it out is the first step on the path to healing.
>
>That said, I do believe that emotions are probably running quite
>high. This discussion thread should probably end in this forum
>as it is now well past the point that I think it is going to be
>resolved or anything positive come out of more.
>
>The work of the panel is important to all of us in AI.
>Volunteers have signed up and are waiting for us to kick it off.
>While I understand your reticence to participate, I continue to
>think you have much to contribute.
>
>The panel will have transparency to its proposals and actions, so
>please follow along as we will with the xAIML project. We'll
>keep the door open and hopefully over time be able to reconcile.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
>com
>[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
>dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
>Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:57 AM
>To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
>Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Forum to advance the science
>of AI(including the resumption of standard setting activities)
>
>It's good to finally get a straight explanation on the issue of
>the
>non-profit/not-for-profit status of the Foundation, which
>(explanation)
>has not been forthcoming in the past.
>
>I would describe the events Rich refers to with the board of
>trustees
>quite differently, but anyone who is truly interested can simply
>read
>the "play by play" as it's archived on mailing lists from that
>time.
>
>I would like to clear up a few inaccuracies in what Rich wrote
>below.
>But first I'd like to note that Rich has not addressed any of the
>issues
>about ties to Franz/Pandorabots. Those issues were behind the
>problems
>in 2002, when Franz/Pandorabots basically bought off Rich and the
>
>foundation for a pittance, and those issues have contaminated the
>
>foundation to this day.
>
>That association has also been part of a particularly nasty
>episode,
>during which Franz/Pandorabots and Rich maintained an open email
>account
>in my name, prominently advertised on an old and inaccurate "bio"
>page,
>despite my repeated requests that it be removed. Rich and Fritz
>Kunze
>(the CEO of Franz) both told me that they would only remove the
>inaccurate information, and close the email account in my name,
>if I
>would agree to sign a contract to be a consultant for
>Pandorabots. It
>was only when we began to mention contacting the California
>Department
>of Consumer Affairs that they finally removed the web page and
>closed
>the email account (after 4 years). They have still refused to
>transfer
>to me the email that was received in my name during that time,
>and have
>told me that I must pay them money if I want this.
>
>Rich began hyping Pandorabots when Franz began supporting him,
>and
>basically turned the foundation into an advertisement for
>Pandorabots.
>Overnight, he also began to disparage Program D, which is still
>the most
>widely-used free AIML interpreter in the world, with a solid and
>clean
>code base, thousands of hours of work invested in it, and proven
>performance and stability. If you look at Rich's web site now,
>Program
>D is barely more than a footnote.
>
>Rich balked, and turned from a friend into a vicious enemy, when
>Nika
>and I called him out on his attempt to turn the foundation into a
>
>personal charity. We had both put a lot of effort into building
>up a
>shared, community effort -- a neutral ground where commercial and
>
>non-commercial interests could meet and work together -- and Rich
>simply
>sold it out to the highest bidder. Funny thing was, the highest
>bidder
>wasn't paying too much. But Rich was in a tough situation, and
>his
>desperation got the better of him.
>
>Both my wife and I have been harassed and threatened by Richard
>Wallace.
> He has made menacing remarks about our family. He has made
>misrepresentations and slanderous remarks about us in public
>spaces. We
>have tried several times over these years to reconcile things
>with him,
>but in the end Rich is only a pleasant person to deal with if
>you're
>doing exactly what he wants. When the situation doesn't seem to
>be
>supporting him personally, he becomes dangerous, scary. At least
>that's
>been my experience, and the experience of others. I predict that
>Brian
>Hoecht will learn this himself.
>
>I *really* hate having to go through all this in public. I've
>never
>come out and said these things in a public forum before. I've
>even gone
>so far as to defend Rich on occasion. I think he's a poor guy
>with a
>lot of problems, probably very misunderstood, very sad, very
>lonely.
>It's a shame that he's also so mean.
>
>As for the other board member Rich is referring to, who Rich says
>said
>she felt "harassed" by me -- it's very true that I was really
>begging
>her to help out in a situation where she was just ready to give
>up.
>Everybody felt like it was a pretty hopeless situation when Rich
>went
>ballistic and decided to seize control of the foundation,
>ignoring all
>the by-laws we supposedly had in place. A couple of board
>members just
>wanted to resign and be done with it. Nika and I thought we
>could
>rescue the situation, and we tried. We didn't succeed.
>
>Lastly, this business about "Noel himself has been hospitalized
>for
>delusional behavior". This is a flat-out lie, and pretty
>disgraceful,
>especially coming from a person who from time to time styles
>himself as
>an advocate for people with mental illness. I'm a pretty
>depressive
>person, but I have never been "hospitalized for delusional
>behavior".
>Rich is referring to a scary episode back in 2001 when I was in a
>
>Russian hospital for 10 days with an unknown ailment. It all
>started
>with a headache, then a fear of meningitis, then a spinal tap,
>and then
>a hellish stay in a place that I still remember as some sort of
>medieval
>dungeon, with all kinds of inappropriate drugs being given to me
>by
>incompetent doctors. It was very frightening, and people who
>know me
>know the story. There was never any explanation for the initial
>headache until quite recently, when I had the same symptoms and a
>more
>knowledgeable medical professional diagnosed it as extreme
>sinusitis.
>My nightmare in the Russian hospital could have been avoided with
>a
>simple dose of antibiotics.
>
>So, sorry, but I don't have any secret "delusional behavior"
>experiences, except perhaps my long-ago delusion that Richard
>Wallace
>was truly interested in a collaborative, open, community-based
>endeavor
>to advance what Brian Hoecht has been referring to as "the
>science of
>AI". I stopped trusting Rich long ago.
>
>But I certainly haven't stopped my development efforts in this
>area. I
>don't know what "competitive products" Rich is referring to.
>Perhaps
>it's Program D? If so, odd, since I've been paid exactly once
>for work
>on Program D, about 4 years ago, for a very small enhancement
>that I
>since rewrote. And with what does Program D compete? With
>Pandorabots?
> I doubt it -- the user base is totally different. Pandorabots
>is
>aimed at getting people up and running with a bot in a few
>seconds --
>Program D is a platform for heavy-usage, highly customized bots.
>And
>what does it mean to talk about a free software product
>"competing",
>anyway? Is it xAIML? Hmm, don't think so: xAIML is neither a
>product
>nor "competitive".
>
>All this is so sad. It has utterly nothing to do with real
>development.
> I am, more than anything else, sad that Rich Wallace has worked
>so
>hard *against* people who are trying to move things ahead in this
>area.
> He's always afraid that someone else is profiting at his
>expense, but
>he's so short-sighted in his efforts to protect his "turf" that
>he ends
>up doing far more harm than good, sowing so much confusion that,
>to my
>mind, it almost outweighs the value of the ideas he donated to
>the world
>10+ years ago.
>
>Sorry for all of this.
>
>Noel
>
>Dr. Rich Wallace wrote:
>> It's nice that Pandorabots has not censored Noel Bush or anyone
>else from
>> expressing freely their opinions about the ALICE AI Foundation,
>nor from
>> promoting his own competitive products, on mailing lists paid
>for by the
>> Founadtion and Pandorabots. One wonders if such free
>expression is
>> allowed on the Program D mailing lists.
>>
>> The fact is, the Federal 501(c)(3) application which Noel Bush
>helped
>> submit, was turned down by the IRS. We never achieved that
>status. The
>> AI Foundation is a California nonprofit corporation, but not a
>Federal
>> 501(c)(3), nor have we ever mispreprented ourselves as such,
>nor have we
>> ever claimed that any donations or purchases made from the
>Foundation are
>> tax deductible. There are however many businesses which are
>> not-for-profit but not 501(c)(3) charitable organizations. We
>are not
>> violating any laws.
>>
>> We have however been repeatedly accused by Noel Bush and his
>wife Nika of
>> tax evasaion and fraud, using the link to the CA Sec'y of State
>posted
>> here as their only evidence. Whatever the problem was with
>this
>> registration form, arose from the original board not doing
>their fiduciary
>> duties in the first place, and leaving me to clean up a mess of
>taxes,
>> business forms, essentially learning how to run a business
>properly after
>> the "boardroom coup" of 2002. We are working If they or
>anyone want to
>> back up these claims, they are welcome to take them to court,
>which the
>> proper forum, not pandorabots-general.
>>
>> Now, when Noel says "the Board of Trustees at the time" he is
>really
>> talking about himself and his wife, and two other people who
>they put
>> under a lot of pressure, and myself. One of them later wrote
>to me and
>> apologized, explained to me that Noel was harassing her,
>calling her up at
>> all hours, when she was trying to deal with other matters in
>her personal
>> life, until she finally "caved." After that, she never heard
>from Noel
>> again.
>>
>> It was obvious that allowing Noel and his wife Nika 2 seats on
>the Board
>> made them a voting block, and if I learned anything from that
>experience,
>> it would be never, never give a husband-and-wife team 2 seats
>on a
>> corporate Board, because it is a recipe for conflict of
>interest.
>>
>> My problems are an open book. But how many people know Noel
>himself has
>> been hospitalized for delusional behavior? If you want to look
>for a
>> troubled history, look no further than Noel Bush.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Brian,
>>>
>>> Will you be helping the foundation restore its status as a
>non-profit?
>>> It has been listed as "suspended" by the California Secretary
>of State
>>> for a very long time:
>>>
>>>
>http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C234
>2616
>>>
>>> Aren't there likely to be problems related to working with an
>>> organization that hasn't maintained compliance? Are
>contributions to a
>>> suspended 501(c)(3) organization still tax deductible, for
>instance?
>>> And if there's any business relationship between a commercial
>entity and
>>> a principal in the foundation (not saying there is in your
>case),
>>> doesn't that pose some potential conflict of interest issues
>that can
>>> only be exacerbated by the organization being in a "suspended"
>status?
>>>
>>> Personally I felt that the "ALICE AI Foundation" became
>problematic
>>> several years ago when its founder began actively directing
>business to
>>> a commercial interest (Franz Inc / Pandorabots), against the
>wishes of
>>> the board of trustees at that time. I also came to the
>conclusion that
>>> the founder's primary aim for the organization was to support
>himself
>>> personally -- a laudable goal, for sure, but not one that
>would (from my
>>> non-professional understanding) fit the meaning of "charity"
>that the
>>> 501(c)(3) designation was intended for (though I may be
>totally wrong
>>> about this). Good grief -- most developers who want to ask
>for money
>>> just put a Paypal "tip jar" out there.
>>>
>>> I think you just might want to be careful about tying up too
>closely
>>> with an organization that may not have all its ducks in a row.
>It
>>> sounds great to start up some kind of process to move AIML
>along again
>>> (and I think that xAIML will be very complementary in that
>regard -- see
>>> my post to the pandorabots list about this). But it might be
>smarter to
>>> start it up under different auspices -- start from a fresh
>slate, so to
>>> speak. The "ALICE Foundation" and all of its baggage could
>end up
>>> dragging down an enthusiastic and energetic effort, with lots
>of
>>> completely irrelevant matters like this.
>>>
>>> AIML can advance, complementary technologies can flourish,
>interpreters
>>> can proliferate, and botmasters can build more and better
>bots, all
>>> without the ALICE AI Foundation. The vision, of course, was
>different
>>> at one time, and likely there still is a useful function that
>could be
>>> performed by some such organization. But one with a history
>as troubled
>>> as this one is probably best to be careful about, at the very
>least.
>>>
>>> Noel
>>>
>>> Brian Hoecht wrote:
>>>> I don't think it is any secret to this group that the AI
>Foundation is
>>>> putting together a panel to fire back up the standard setting
>process
>>>> and general advancement of the science of AI.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The call to action to join the panel/forum has been received
>mostly as
>>>> requests for beta access to the AIML Editor. The Editor is
>only the
>>>> means to the end. or a perk if you will for the volunteers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, I think the more important message was missed.
>The goal
>>>> is, was and remains the advancement of the science of AI -
>through the
>>>> Foundation and on a basis committed to its goals and for the
>benefit of
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the call again if you missed it:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "If you are highly skilled and experienced in AI, your
>foundation needs
>>>> you. Technology and general computer capabilities have kept
>expanding
>>>> since 2002. The AIML standards have not kept up. Progress
>will not
>>>> happen on its own (translation: Dr. Wallace has a day job),
>so if you
>>>> have passion, energy and time that you can commit, we are
>creating the
>>>> forum for you to help... and yes, panel/forum members get
>access to the
>>>> beta release of the new AIML Editor."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yes, we are trying to find a way to give access to the
>consumer
>>>> version to everyone who wants a copy, but no it is NOT open
>source nor
>>>> will it be (but it will produce standard compliant AIML files
>as its
>>>> output and no there is no hidden magic to it beyond it being
>more
>>>> efficient than WordPad - multiple *.aiml file manipulation,
>GUI, sort,
>>>> relate, test, view, etc.). And yes it is a beta release.
>Please be
>>>> patient. We'll solve this as the panel gets going in a fair
>and
>>>> transparent manner that is true to the mission statement of
>the
>>>> Foundation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So. we are looking for skilled, passionate volunteers.
>Should you
>>>> choose to accept this exciting mission here is what you can
>expect to
>>>> get to lead:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) a revamping of the ALICE AAA data set to make the
>creation of new or
>>>> derivative synthetic personalities more efficient and easier
>>>>
>>>> 2) defining AIML coding best practices then cleaning up the
>ALICE AAA
>>>> data set for them
>>>>
>>>> 3) Several how to's for:
>>>>
>>>> a) Embedded javascript
>>>>
>>>> b) Embedded avatar controls
>>>>
>>>> c) Embedded emotive TTS
>>>>
>>>> d) System tags
>>>>
>>>> e) Website + application/db interoperability
>>>>
>>>> 4) Resumption of standard setting activities
>>>>
>>>> 4) Others... (Who knows what the top minds in the field will
>come up
>>>> with)?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As with the Editor, we are doing these at Ai-Dealer, but
>don't want to
>>>> float out to sea on our own. It is why I approached Dr.
>Wallace about
>>>> the need to fire back up the activities of the Foundation and
>to advance
>>>> the science. It is why I've offered free access to the beta
>version of
>>>> the Editor's consumer version to the panel for those
>contributing their
>>>> time and effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And to clear up another point, yes there is a corporate
>version of the
>>>> AIML Editor available for a modest fee to anyone looking to
>implement an
>>>> AI project wanting media exposure via the panel. We are
>doing this
>>>> because we want to help bring business community credibility
>to the
>>>> field of applied AI. The fee is to help us enhance it in
>support of how
>>>> you are going to use it. Members in this group need not
>contribute
>>>> their time to the efforts of the volunteer group, saving
>their time for
>>>> their own execution. The corporate version includes the
>items listed
>>>> under 3a-e above, the consumer version does not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As to the xAIML effort, the idea of needing to expand the
>capabilities
>>>> of AIML is correct, I just don't think it should be done in
>isolation by
>>>> one of the AIML Interpreters. That said, I do like the
>notion of <spell
>>>> check> tags and some of the other ideas... but they need the
>peer
>>>> review, discussion, agreement and planned release via the
>standard
>>>> setting organization.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a final note, here is an interesting bit of trivia for the
>AI
>>>> community. I grew up in automotive retailing circles and
>understand the
>>>> importance of standards. Did you know that in most car
>dealer
>>>> accounting systems, there are more lines of code dedicated to
>>>> integration with the various OEM's than there is for the
>complete
>>>> accounting, sales, service and parts applications? And there
>are only
>>>> about 20 OEM's. This happened because each OEM built their
>own spec for
>>>> simple things like warranty claims, financial statements,
>vehicle
>>>> invoices, parts orders, etc. It took close to a decade to
>get standards
>>>> established then implemented, but this organization (see link
>below) is
>>>> becoming the dominant force in the industry and is enabling
>more,
>>>> better, cheaper and faster integration than the dealers have
>ever seen
>>>> before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> www.starstandards.org <http://www.starstandards.org/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So... cynicism aside, having a single inclusive standard is
>important.
>>>> Let it go and it will take a decade or more to get it back -
>if ever.
>>>> The AI movement is fortunate to have such standards up front.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW - I noted on the Alice AAA page
>http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/
>>>> that the following individuals were the driving force in
>transforming
>>>> Alice Silver into Alice AAA. some are on our panel/forum.
>others we have
>>>> not heard from. While we are already at nearly 20 members
>now it would
>>>> be great to hear from those below whom we have not yet heard.
>Many
>>>> hands make quick work of the significant task ahead of us.
>As you know,
>>>> scrubbing Alice even for a single best practice or task is a
>reasonable
>>>> sized effort.
>>>>
>>>> * Joy Harwood
>>>> * Colin Meldrum
>>>> * Dr. Doubly Aimless
>>>> * Chris Hatcher
>>>> * Gary Dubuque
>>>> * Anne Kootstra
>>>> * Lindsay Davies
>>>> * Stefan Zakarias
>>>> * Tony Sharp
>>>> * John Campbell
>>>> * Steve Worswick
>>>> * Gary Poster
>>>> * Soren Gjellerup Christiansen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From:
>>>>
>pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
>com
>>>>
>[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
>dorabots.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of Dr. Rich Wallace
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:18 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian, the simple answer to your question is that there does
>exist a
>>>> body, the AIML Architecture Committee, to debate, propose and
>adopt
>>>> changes and additions to the AIML spec. For various
>reasons, that
>>>> committee has been dormant since 2002, and the 1.0.1 spec has
>remained
>>>> frozen in place. One reason has been that the guy we relied
>on to write
>>>> the spec (who is not a computer scientist, but a "musician")
>has decided
>>>> to compete with us rather than cooperate, and has now
>announced his own
>>>> confusing attempt to create an "XAIML" standard right here on
>this
>>>> mailing list and elsewhere. I personally don't see any
>standards
>>>> efforts moving forward until someone starts making more money
>from AIML
>>>> applications. So far the various projects have adopted an
>"embrace and
>>>> extend" approach, which has been fertile ground for
>innovation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One way to handle a simple macro extension like yours is at
>the
>>>> authoring level. You can have the botmaster write <sr2/> but
>internally
>>>> expand that expression into <srai><star index="2"/></srai>
>in the AIML
>>>> file. That way you get the best of both worlds. "AIML
>Authoring Tools"
>>>> has been a subject of ongoing discussion for some time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Below is a category out of the Alice AAA Reducer.aiml file.
>>>>> <category>
>>>>> <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>>>> <template>
>>>>> <srai><star/></srai>
>>>>> <srai><star index="2"/></srai>
>>>>> </template>
>>>>> </category>
>>>>> My question is this...
>>>>> If..... <srai><star/></srai> = <sr/>
>>>>> Then... <srai><star index="2"/></srai> = <sr2/>???
>>>>> Then this would be oh so much briefer if stated as:
>>>>> <category>
>>>>> <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>>>> <template>
>>>>> <sr/>
>>>>> <sr2/>
>>>>> </template>
>>>>> </category>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> This is the pandorabots-general mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>-------
>>>>
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>>
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