FW: [pandorabots-general] Forum to advance the science ofAI(including
the resumption of standard setting activities)
Brian Hoecht
brian_hoecht at msn.com
Thu May 18 09:50:15 PDT 2006
Noel,
There is obviously a deep rift between the you and Dr. Wallace.
I'm sorry both of you have now had more laundry washed in this
public forum than either of you probably wished or intended.
Hopefully airing it out is the first step on the path to healing.
That said, I do believe that emotions are probably running quite
high. This discussion thread should probably end in this forum
as it is now well past the point that I think it is going to be
resolved or anything positive come out of more.
The work of the panel is important to all of us in AI.
Volunteers have signed up and are waiting for us to kick it off.
While I understand your reticence to participate, I continue to
think you have much to contribute.
The panel will have transparency to its proposals and actions, so
please follow along as we will with the xAIML project. We'll
keep the door open and hopefully over time be able to reconcile.
-----Original Message-----
From:
pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
com
[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:57 AM
To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Forum to advance the science
of AI(including the resumption of standard setting activities)
It's good to finally get a straight explanation on the issue of
the
non-profit/not-for-profit status of the Foundation, which
(explanation)
has not been forthcoming in the past.
I would describe the events Rich refers to with the board of
trustees
quite differently, but anyone who is truly interested can simply
read
the "play by play" as it's archived on mailing lists from that
time.
I would like to clear up a few inaccuracies in what Rich wrote
below.
But first I'd like to note that Rich has not addressed any of the
issues
about ties to Franz/Pandorabots. Those issues were behind the
problems
in 2002, when Franz/Pandorabots basically bought off Rich and the
foundation for a pittance, and those issues have contaminated the
foundation to this day.
That association has also been part of a particularly nasty
episode,
during which Franz/Pandorabots and Rich maintained an open email
account
in my name, prominently advertised on an old and inaccurate "bio"
page,
despite my repeated requests that it be removed. Rich and Fritz
Kunze
(the CEO of Franz) both told me that they would only remove the
inaccurate information, and close the email account in my name,
if I
would agree to sign a contract to be a consultant for
Pandorabots. It
was only when we began to mention contacting the California
Department
of Consumer Affairs that they finally removed the web page and
closed
the email account (after 4 years). They have still refused to
transfer
to me the email that was received in my name during that time,
and have
told me that I must pay them money if I want this.
Rich began hyping Pandorabots when Franz began supporting him,
and
basically turned the foundation into an advertisement for
Pandorabots.
Overnight, he also began to disparage Program D, which is still
the most
widely-used free AIML interpreter in the world, with a solid and
clean
code base, thousands of hours of work invested in it, and proven
performance and stability. If you look at Rich's web site now,
Program
D is barely more than a footnote.
Rich balked, and turned from a friend into a vicious enemy, when
Nika
and I called him out on his attempt to turn the foundation into a
personal charity. We had both put a lot of effort into building
up a
shared, community effort -- a neutral ground where commercial and
non-commercial interests could meet and work together -- and Rich
simply
sold it out to the highest bidder. Funny thing was, the highest
bidder
wasn't paying too much. But Rich was in a tough situation, and
his
desperation got the better of him.
Both my wife and I have been harassed and threatened by Richard
Wallace.
He has made menacing remarks about our family. He has made
misrepresentations and slanderous remarks about us in public
spaces. We
have tried several times over these years to reconcile things
with him,
but in the end Rich is only a pleasant person to deal with if
you're
doing exactly what he wants. When the situation doesn't seem to
be
supporting him personally, he becomes dangerous, scary. At least
that's
been my experience, and the experience of others. I predict that
Brian
Hoecht will learn this himself.
I *really* hate having to go through all this in public. I've
never
come out and said these things in a public forum before. I've
even gone
so far as to defend Rich on occasion. I think he's a poor guy
with a
lot of problems, probably very misunderstood, very sad, very
lonely.
It's a shame that he's also so mean.
As for the other board member Rich is referring to, who Rich says
said
she felt "harassed" by me -- it's very true that I was really
begging
her to help out in a situation where she was just ready to give
up.
Everybody felt like it was a pretty hopeless situation when Rich
went
ballistic and decided to seize control of the foundation,
ignoring all
the by-laws we supposedly had in place. A couple of board
members just
wanted to resign and be done with it. Nika and I thought we
could
rescue the situation, and we tried. We didn't succeed.
Lastly, this business about "Noel himself has been hospitalized
for
delusional behavior". This is a flat-out lie, and pretty
disgraceful,
especially coming from a person who from time to time styles
himself as
an advocate for people with mental illness. I'm a pretty
depressive
person, but I have never been "hospitalized for delusional
behavior".
Rich is referring to a scary episode back in 2001 when I was in a
Russian hospital for 10 days with an unknown ailment. It all
started
with a headache, then a fear of meningitis, then a spinal tap,
and then
a hellish stay in a place that I still remember as some sort of
medieval
dungeon, with all kinds of inappropriate drugs being given to me
by
incompetent doctors. It was very frightening, and people who
know me
know the story. There was never any explanation for the initial
headache until quite recently, when I had the same symptoms and a
more
knowledgeable medical professional diagnosed it as extreme
sinusitis.
My nightmare in the Russian hospital could have been avoided with
a
simple dose of antibiotics.
So, sorry, but I don't have any secret "delusional behavior"
experiences, except perhaps my long-ago delusion that Richard
Wallace
was truly interested in a collaborative, open, community-based
endeavor
to advance what Brian Hoecht has been referring to as "the
science of
AI". I stopped trusting Rich long ago.
But I certainly haven't stopped my development efforts in this
area. I
don't know what "competitive products" Rich is referring to.
Perhaps
it's Program D? If so, odd, since I've been paid exactly once
for work
on Program D, about 4 years ago, for a very small enhancement
that I
since rewrote. And with what does Program D compete? With
Pandorabots?
I doubt it -- the user base is totally different. Pandorabots
is
aimed at getting people up and running with a bot in a few
seconds --
Program D is a platform for heavy-usage, highly customized bots.
And
what does it mean to talk about a free software product
"competing",
anyway? Is it xAIML? Hmm, don't think so: xAIML is neither a
product
nor "competitive".
All this is so sad. It has utterly nothing to do with real
development.
I am, more than anything else, sad that Rich Wallace has worked
so
hard *against* people who are trying to move things ahead in this
area.
He's always afraid that someone else is profiting at his
expense, but
he's so short-sighted in his efforts to protect his "turf" that
he ends
up doing far more harm than good, sowing so much confusion that,
to my
mind, it almost outweighs the value of the ideas he donated to
the world
10+ years ago.
Sorry for all of this.
Noel
Dr. Rich Wallace wrote:
> It's nice that Pandorabots has not censored Noel Bush or anyone
else from
> expressing freely their opinions about the ALICE AI Foundation,
nor from
> promoting his own competitive products, on mailing lists paid
for by the
> Founadtion and Pandorabots. One wonders if such free
expression is
> allowed on the Program D mailing lists.
>
> The fact is, the Federal 501(c)(3) application which Noel Bush
helped
> submit, was turned down by the IRS. We never achieved that
status. The
> AI Foundation is a California nonprofit corporation, but not a
Federal
> 501(c)(3), nor have we ever mispreprented ourselves as such,
nor have we
> ever claimed that any donations or purchases made from the
Foundation are
> tax deductible. There are however many businesses which are
> not-for-profit but not 501(c)(3) charitable organizations. We
are not
> violating any laws.
>
> We have however been repeatedly accused by Noel Bush and his
wife Nika of
> tax evasaion and fraud, using the link to the CA Sec'y of State
posted
> here as their only evidence. Whatever the problem was with
this
> registration form, arose from the original board not doing
their fiduciary
> duties in the first place, and leaving me to clean up a mess of
taxes,
> business forms, essentially learning how to run a business
properly after
> the "boardroom coup" of 2002. We are working If they or
anyone want to
> back up these claims, they are welcome to take them to court,
which the
> proper forum, not pandorabots-general.
>
> Now, when Noel says "the Board of Trustees at the time" he is
really
> talking about himself and his wife, and two other people who
they put
> under a lot of pressure, and myself. One of them later wrote
to me and
> apologized, explained to me that Noel was harassing her,
calling her up at
> all hours, when she was trying to deal with other matters in
her personal
> life, until she finally "caved." After that, she never heard
from Noel
> again.
>
> It was obvious that allowing Noel and his wife Nika 2 seats on
the Board
> made them a voting block, and if I learned anything from that
experience,
> it would be never, never give a husband-and-wife team 2 seats
on a
> corporate Board, because it is a recipe for conflict of
interest.
>
> My problems are an open book. But how many people know Noel
himself has
> been hospitalized for delusional behavior? If you want to look
for a
> troubled history, look no further than Noel Bush.
>
>
>
>
>> Brian,
>>
>> Will you be helping the foundation restore its status as a
non-profit?
>> It has been listed as "suspended" by the California Secretary
of State
>> for a very long time:
>>
>>
http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C234
2616
>>
>> Aren't there likely to be problems related to working with an
>> organization that hasn't maintained compliance? Are
contributions to a
>> suspended 501(c)(3) organization still tax deductible, for
instance?
>> And if there's any business relationship between a commercial
entity and
>> a principal in the foundation (not saying there is in your
case),
>> doesn't that pose some potential conflict of interest issues
that can
>> only be exacerbated by the organization being in a "suspended"
status?
>>
>> Personally I felt that the "ALICE AI Foundation" became
problematic
>> several years ago when its founder began actively directing
business to
>> a commercial interest (Franz Inc / Pandorabots), against the
wishes of
>> the board of trustees at that time. I also came to the
conclusion that
>> the founder's primary aim for the organization was to support
himself
>> personally -- a laudable goal, for sure, but not one that
would (from my
>> non-professional understanding) fit the meaning of "charity"
that the
>> 501(c)(3) designation was intended for (though I may be
totally wrong
>> about this). Good grief -- most developers who want to ask
for money
>> just put a Paypal "tip jar" out there.
>>
>> I think you just might want to be careful about tying up too
closely
>> with an organization that may not have all its ducks in a row.
It
>> sounds great to start up some kind of process to move AIML
along again
>> (and I think that xAIML will be very complementary in that
regard -- see
>> my post to the pandorabots list about this). But it might be
smarter to
>> start it up under different auspices -- start from a fresh
slate, so to
>> speak. The "ALICE Foundation" and all of its baggage could
end up
>> dragging down an enthusiastic and energetic effort, with lots
of
>> completely irrelevant matters like this.
>>
>> AIML can advance, complementary technologies can flourish,
interpreters
>> can proliferate, and botmasters can build more and better
bots, all
>> without the ALICE AI Foundation. The vision, of course, was
different
>> at one time, and likely there still is a useful function that
could be
>> performed by some such organization. But one with a history
as troubled
>> as this one is probably best to be careful about, at the very
least.
>>
>> Noel
>>
>> Brian Hoecht wrote:
>>> I don't think it is any secret to this group that the AI
Foundation is
>>> putting together a panel to fire back up the standard setting
process
>>> and general advancement of the science of AI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The call to action to join the panel/forum has been received
mostly as
>>> requests for beta access to the AIML Editor. The Editor is
only the
>>> means to the end. or a perk if you will for the volunteers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I think the more important message was missed.
The goal
>>> is, was and remains the advancement of the science of AI -
through the
>>> Foundation and on a basis committed to its goals and for the
benefit of
>>> all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the call again if you missed it:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "If you are highly skilled and experienced in AI, your
foundation needs
>>> you. Technology and general computer capabilities have kept
expanding
>>> since 2002. The AIML standards have not kept up. Progress
will not
>>> happen on its own (translation: Dr. Wallace has a day job),
so if you
>>> have passion, energy and time that you can commit, we are
creating the
>>> forum for you to help... and yes, panel/forum members get
access to the
>>> beta release of the new AIML Editor."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And yes, we are trying to find a way to give access to the
consumer
>>> version to everyone who wants a copy, but no it is NOT open
source nor
>>> will it be (but it will produce standard compliant AIML files
as its
>>> output and no there is no hidden magic to it beyond it being
more
>>> efficient than WordPad - multiple *.aiml file manipulation,
GUI, sort,
>>> relate, test, view, etc.). And yes it is a beta release.
Please be
>>> patient. We'll solve this as the panel gets going in a fair
and
>>> transparent manner that is true to the mission statement of
the
>>> Foundation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So. we are looking for skilled, passionate volunteers.
Should you
>>> choose to accept this exciting mission here is what you can
expect to
>>> get to lead:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) a revamping of the ALICE AAA data set to make the
creation of new or
>>> derivative synthetic personalities more efficient and easier
>>>
>>> 2) defining AIML coding best practices then cleaning up the
ALICE AAA
>>> data set for them
>>>
>>> 3) Several how to's for:
>>>
>>> a) Embedded javascript
>>>
>>> b) Embedded avatar controls
>>>
>>> c) Embedded emotive TTS
>>>
>>> d) System tags
>>>
>>> e) Website + application/db interoperability
>>>
>>> 4) Resumption of standard setting activities
>>>
>>> 4) Others... (Who knows what the top minds in the field will
come up
>>> with)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As with the Editor, we are doing these at Ai-Dealer, but
don't want to
>>> float out to sea on our own. It is why I approached Dr.
Wallace about
>>> the need to fire back up the activities of the Foundation and
to advance
>>> the science. It is why I've offered free access to the beta
version of
>>> the Editor's consumer version to the panel for those
contributing their
>>> time and effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And to clear up another point, yes there is a corporate
version of the
>>> AIML Editor available for a modest fee to anyone looking to
implement an
>>> AI project wanting media exposure via the panel. We are
doing this
>>> because we want to help bring business community credibility
to the
>>> field of applied AI. The fee is to help us enhance it in
support of how
>>> you are going to use it. Members in this group need not
contribute
>>> their time to the efforts of the volunteer group, saving
their time for
>>> their own execution. The corporate version includes the
items listed
>>> under 3a-e above, the consumer version does not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As to the xAIML effort, the idea of needing to expand the
capabilities
>>> of AIML is correct, I just don't think it should be done in
isolation by
>>> one of the AIML Interpreters. That said, I do like the
notion of <spell
>>> check> tags and some of the other ideas... but they need the
peer
>>> review, discussion, agreement and planned release via the
standard
>>> setting organization.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As a final note, here is an interesting bit of trivia for the
AI
>>> community. I grew up in automotive retailing circles and
understand the
>>> importance of standards. Did you know that in most car
dealer
>>> accounting systems, there are more lines of code dedicated to
>>> integration with the various OEM's than there is for the
complete
>>> accounting, sales, service and parts applications? And there
are only
>>> about 20 OEM's. This happened because each OEM built their
own spec for
>>> simple things like warranty claims, financial statements,
vehicle
>>> invoices, parts orders, etc. It took close to a decade to
get standards
>>> established then implemented, but this organization (see link
below) is
>>> becoming the dominant force in the industry and is enabling
more,
>>> better, cheaper and faster integration than the dealers have
ever seen
>>> before.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> www.starstandards.org <http://www.starstandards.org/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So... cynicism aside, having a single inclusive standard is
important.
>>> Let it go and it will take a decade or more to get it back -
if ever.
>>> The AI movement is fortunate to have such standards up front.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW - I noted on the Alice AAA page
http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/
>>> that the following individuals were the driving force in
transforming
>>> Alice Silver into Alice AAA. some are on our panel/forum.
others we have
>>> not heard from. While we are already at nearly 20 members
now it would
>>> be great to hear from those below whom we have not yet heard.
Many
>>> hands make quick work of the significant task ahead of us.
As you know,
>>> scrubbing Alice even for a single best practice or task is a
reasonable
>>> sized effort.
>>>
>>> * Joy Harwood
>>> * Colin Meldrum
>>> * Dr. Doubly Aimless
>>> * Chris Hatcher
>>> * Gary Dubuque
>>> * Anne Kootstra
>>> * Lindsay Davies
>>> * Stefan Zakarias
>>> * Tony Sharp
>>> * John Campbell
>>> * Steve Worswick
>>> * Gary Poster
>>> * Soren Gjellerup Christiansen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From:
>>>
pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
com
>>>
[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
dorabots.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Dr. Rich Wallace
>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:18 PM
>>>
>>> To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
>>>
>>> Subject: RE: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian, the simple answer to your question is that there does
exist a
>>> body, the AIML Architecture Committee, to debate, propose and
adopt
>>> changes and additions to the AIML spec. For various
reasons, that
>>> committee has been dormant since 2002, and the 1.0.1 spec has
remained
>>> frozen in place. One reason has been that the guy we relied
on to write
>>> the spec (who is not a computer scientist, but a "musician")
has decided
>>> to compete with us rather than cooperate, and has now
announced his own
>>> confusing attempt to create an "XAIML" standard right here on
this
>>> mailing list and elsewhere. I personally don't see any
standards
>>> efforts moving forward until someone starts making more money
from AIML
>>> applications. So far the various projects have adopted an
"embrace and
>>> extend" approach, which has been fertile ground for
innovation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One way to handle a simple macro extension like yours is at
the
>>> authoring level. You can have the botmaster write <sr2/> but
internally
>>> expand that expression into <srai><star index="2"/></srai>
in the AIML
>>> file. That way you get the best of both worlds. "AIML
Authoring Tools"
>>> has been a subject of ongoing discussion for some time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Below is a category out of the Alice AAA Reducer.aiml file.
>>>> <category>
>>>> <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>>> <template>
>>>> <srai><star/></srai>
>>>> <srai><star index="2"/></srai>
>>>> </template>
>>>> </category>
>>>> My question is this...
>>>> If..... <srai><star/></srai> = <sr/>
>>>> Then... <srai><star index="2"/></srai> = <sr2/>???
>>>> Then this would be oh so much briefer if stated as:
>>>> <category>
>>>> <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>>> <template>
>>>> <sr/>
>>>> <sr2/>
>>>> </template>
>>>> </category>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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