[pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem

Joshua Madara jamadara at gmail.com
Thu May 18 08:53:18 PDT 2006 

Sorry to interject, but...

>WordPad isn't open source, yet we all use it.

Fwiw, I don't. There are any number of better (imo), open and free
text editors available.

>Am I missing something here?

I have no problem w/ people wanting to make $ from this. Personally, I
don't. I prefer to work w/ open-source and freely available
applications for several reasons, not the least of which is giving
back to the community of open-source and freely available applications
I started using long ago because, frankly, they were free. I am not
interested in testing or supporting a commercially available editor,
because I would not be interested in purchasing it nor in charging $
to interface w/ the bots I created w/ it, which I design w/ more
scholarly interest. Again, zero problem w/ those who have commercial
interests in this project; I am simply offering an alternative point
of view (and on the other hand, I do not mind paying membership dues
to the Foundation, trusting that my funds go more or less toward
maintaining and improving AIML standards).

Sincerely (w/o a soap box to step down from),
Joshua


On 5/18/06, Brian Hoecht <brian_hoecht at msn.com> wrote:
> Busy I understand.
>
> At Ai-Dealer we are getting ready to launch our commercial car
> dealer sales application next month, yet I think this effort for
> the panel is important enough to the future of AI that I'm making
> my own volunteer time for it... and I'm a hands on CEO.
>
> I'm not sure where the notion of the non-free (non - open source)
> commercial project keeps coming from.  The AIML code the Editor
> produces is standards compliant and non-proprietary.  We are
> giving the consumer version Editor for free to everyone on the
> panel as a perk for their contribution and to make their efforts
> efficient.  While the corporate version does come with a modest
> fee, those using it with the advanced features don't have to
> contribute anything to the panel beyond their own time
> implementing their own commercial products... at a greatly
> discounted price for corporate application, picking up free media
> and business community exposure via the panel.
>
> So, while the Editor code is not "open source" in the true sense
> of the term, it also is only an easily understood tool like
> WordPad to make the maintenance, creation and development of AIML
> efficient.  WordPad isn't open source, yet we all use it.
>
> The Editor certainly doesn't lock anyone in to anything
> proprietary such as one particular Interpreter.
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
> com
> [mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
> dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:38 AM
> To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
> Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem
>
> Thanks, Brian.  I really do think your project is interesting,
> and I hope that your efforts--both commercial and otherwise--will
> produce results, but personally I just can't participate now.  I
> already have a heaping plate of work in front of me, and I also
> must agree with others who have expressed misgivings about
> donating time and ideas to a non-free (non - open source)
> commercial project.
>
> Brian Hoecht wrote:
> > Noel,
> >
> > That is a great response, very well thought out and quite
> > thought-provoking.
> >
> > I would again like to extend the offer to have you join the
> panel
> > (see email floating around this list right now).  You have much
> > to offer and the panel will be the poorer without you.
> >
> > I've also cc'd a few of the other creators of the other
> > Interpreters on this email.  I'm interested in their opinions
> on
> > this topic and what they think about how best to proceed.
> >
> > I do know that I am way over my head technologically... but
> that
> > is not what I do... and why we are assembling a forum.
> > Facilitating constructive discussion, collaboration and
> > advancement of applied technology... now that I know.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> >
> pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
> > com
> >
> [mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
> > dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:32 AM
> > To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com; xaiml at aitools.org
> > Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem
> >
> > It is not accurate to say that xAIML is a competitor to AIML.
> In
> > fact,
> > it's quite the opposite: xAIML implicitly asserts that there is
> > *no
> > point* in "competing" with AIML -- if you are going to use a
> > pattern-matching oriented, stimulus-response sort of approach,
> > then it
> > is much wiser to use AIML as a basis than to go off and try to
> > reinvent
> > the wheel for the hundredth time.
> >
> > Remember that xAIML is *not* an alternative to AIML -- xAIML is
> > not
> > "another language" or "another standard".  This is true of
> xAIML
> > to AIML
> > far much moreso than it is true of XHTML to HTML, for instance.
> >
> > xAIML is, in fact, a wholehearted embrace of the "embrace and
> > extend"
> > attitude.  xAIML just offers a way for people to describe and
> > share
> > their embracings and extensions in a slightly more formal and
> > useful
> > way.  At present, if some AIML interpreter includes an
> additional
> >
> > feature, or does not implement a core AIML element, or
> implements
> > an
> > AIML element differently from other interpreters, you just have
> > to hope
> > that the documentation tells you so.  But in this case the
> notion
> > of
> > "what AIML is" gets a little fuzzy, since, for instance, "what
> > AIML is
> > to Pandorabots" may be different from "what AIML is to
> > RebeccaAIML".
> >
> > xAIML is a way for each interpreter to specify precisely how it
> > matches
> > up with the base AIML functionality set.  The idea is that you
> > can tell
> > "at a glance" whether a given interpreter has the functionality
> > you're
> > looking for, and whether it will be able to use your (x)AIML
> set,
> > and if
> > not, why.
> >
> > At the same time, developers of "xAIML interpreters" can feel
> > freer in
> > implementing extended functionality sets, or even altering some
> > basic
> > AIML functionality, without a fear of falling out of the
> "circle
> > of
> > trust" that a standard like AIML provides.  That circle of
> trust
> > is
> > extremely useful, but it should not be a hindrance.  So xAIML
> > provides a
> > suggested path for developers to follow in pursuing innovation
> > while
> > retaining "measurable compatibility".
> >
> > Brian's message brings up an important category of extensions
> to
> > or
> > variations on AIML.  There are many "macro extensions" that
> > people would
> > like to use in AIML, that can be implemented purely as
> > transformations
> > from some alternate markup to AIML, via XSLT.  For instance,
> > "implementing" a <sr2/> element would be as simple as:
> >
> > <xsl:template match="sr2">
> >    <xsl:element name="srai">
> >      <xsl:element name="star">
> >        <xsl:attribute name="index">2</xsl:attribute>
> >      </xsl:element>
> >    </xsl:element>
> > </xsl:template>
> >
> > Now, if you have an interpreter that will recognize an XSL
> > stylesheet
> > directive at the top of your document, and will apply the
> > designated
> > stylesheet to the document before loading it, you have the
> means
> > for
> > creating your own "dialect" that can vary considerably from
> > "orthodox" AIML.
> >
> > But now that you've got your own dialect, what to do with it?
> > You still
> > want to be able to validate it, like you can validate AIML.
> > There are
> > so many pieces of software out there -- free and commercial --
> > that
> > allow you to validate AIML against a schema...even while you
> are
> > typing
> > it, so you never need worry about submitting invalid AIML to
> your
> >
> > interpreter.  But when you've written your own dialect, you
> also
> > want
> > this same ability.  So you could just write your own schema --
> > copy the
> > existing AIML schema and make your changes, for instance.  (Or
> > write
> > your own schema.)  But then you'd be firmly "out of the
> circle",
> > because
> > your dialect would no longer be "true AIML".  What to do?
> >
> > The answer (I think) is xAIML, because it provides a structured
> > means
> > for expressing the relationship of your derived dialect to its
> > parent,
> > and offers a kind of "schema diff" functionality that should
> make
> > it
> > easier to customize a schema for your own needs.  If you have
> an
> > xAIML-Spec for your dialect, then when you feed it to an xAIML
> > interpreter, that interpreter will know how to handle it.
> >
> > And I think that the specific matter of "macro extensions" --
> all
> > those
> > extensions that can be handled with XSLT -- suggests that there
> > should
> > be a certain level of xAIML interpreter which consists of
> nothing
> > more
> > than the ability to apply a designated stylesheet to an input
> > document.
> >   It would make a lot of sense to have a designation of
> > "pure-transform"
> > or something like that as an available attribute on an xAIML
> spec
> > element.
> >
> > Noel
> >
> > Dr. Rich Wallace wrote:
> >> Brian, the simple answer to your question is that there does
> > exist a body,
> >> the AIML Architecture Committee, to debate, propose and adopt
> > changes and
> >> additions to the AIML spec.   For various reasons, that
> > committee has been
> >> dormant since 2002, and the 1.0.1 spec has remained frozen in
> > place.  One
> >> reason has been that the guy we relied on to write the spec
> > (who is not a
> >> computer scientist, but a "musician") has decided to compete
> > with us
> >> rather than cooperate, and has now announced his own confusing
> > attempt to
> >> create an "XAIML" standard right here on this mailing list and
> > elsewhere.
> >> I personally don't see any standards efforts moving forward
> > until someone
> >> starts making more money from AIML applications.  So far the
> > various
> >> projects have adopted an "embrace and extend" approach, which
> > has been
> >> fertile ground for innovation.
> >>
> >> One way to handle a simple macro extension like yours is at
> the
> > authoring
> >> level.  You can have the botmaster write <sr2/> but internally
> > expand that
> >> expression into <srai><star index="2"/></srai> in the AIML
> > file.  That way
> >> you get the best of both worlds.  "AIML Authoring Tools" has
> > been a
> >> subject of ongoing discussion for some time.
> >>
> >> Rich
> >>
> >>> Below is a category out of the Alice AAA Reducer.aiml file.
> >>>
> >>> <category>
> >>>     <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
> >>>     <template>
> >>>             <srai><star/></srai>
> >>>             <srai><star index="2"/></srai>
> >>>     </template>
> >>> </category>
> >>>
> >>> My question is this...
> >>>
> >>> If.....  <srai><star/></srai> = <sr/>
> >>> Then...  <srai><star index="2"/></srai> = <sr2/>???
> >>>
> >>> Then this would be oh so much briefer if stated as:
> >>>
> >>> <category>
> >>>     <pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
> >>>     <template>
> >>>             <sr/>
> >>>             <sr2/>
> >>>     </template>
> >>> </category>
> >>>
> >>> Thoughts?
> > _______________________________________________
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