[pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem

Brian Hoecht brian_hoecht at msn.com
Thu May 18 08:03:07 PDT 2006 

Busy I understand.

At Ai-Dealer we are getting ready to launch our commercial car
dealer sales application next month, yet I think this effort for
the panel is important enough to the future of AI that I'm making
my own volunteer time for it... and I'm a hands on CEO.

I'm not sure where the notion of the non-free (non - open source)
commercial project keeps coming from.  The AIML code the Editor
produces is standards compliant and non-proprietary.  We are
giving the consumer version Editor for free to everyone on the
panel as a perk for their contribution and to make their efforts
efficient.  While the corporate version does come with a modest
fee, those using it with the advanced features don't have to
contribute anything to the panel beyond their own time
implementing their own commercial products... at a greatly
discounted price for corporate application, picking up free media
and business community exposure via the panel.

So, while the Editor code is not "open source" in the true sense
of the term, it also is only an easily understood tool like
WordPad to make the maintenance, creation and development of AIML
efficient.  WordPad isn't open source, yet we all use it.

The Editor certainly doesn't lock anyone in to anything
proprietary such as one particular Interpreter.

Am I missing something here?

-----Original Message-----
From:
pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
com
[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 10:38 AM
To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com
Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem

Thanks, Brian.  I really do think your project is interesting,
and I hope that your efforts--both commercial and otherwise--will
produce results, but personally I just can't participate now.  I
already have a heaping plate of work in front of me, and I also
must agree with others who have expressed misgivings about
donating time and ideas to a non-free (non - open source)
commercial project.

Brian Hoecht wrote:
> Noel,
> 
> That is a great response, very well thought out and quite
> thought-provoking.
> 
> I would again like to extend the offer to have you join the
panel
> (see email floating around this list right now).  You have much
> to offer and the panel will be the poorer without you.
> 
> I've also cc'd a few of the other creators of the other
> Interpreters on this email.  I'm interested in their opinions
on
> this topic and what they think about how best to proceed.
> 
> I do know that I am way over my head technologically... but
that
> is not what I do... and why we are assembling a forum.
> Facilitating constructive discussion, collaboration and
> advancement of applied technology... now that I know.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
>
pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pandorabots
> com
>
[mailto:pandorabots-general-bounces+brian_hoecht=msn.com at list.pan
> dorabots.com] On Behalf Of Noel Bush
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:32 AM
> To: pandorabots-general at list.pandorabots.com; xaiml at aitools.org
> Subject: Re: [pandorabots-general] Newbie Problem
> 
> It is not accurate to say that xAIML is a competitor to AIML.
In
> fact, 
> it's quite the opposite: xAIML implicitly asserts that there is
> *no 
> point* in "competing" with AIML -- if you are going to use a 
> pattern-matching oriented, stimulus-response sort of approach,
> then it 
> is much wiser to use AIML as a basis than to go off and try to
> reinvent 
> the wheel for the hundredth time.
> 
> Remember that xAIML is *not* an alternative to AIML -- xAIML is
> not 
> "another language" or "another standard".  This is true of
xAIML
> to AIML 
> far much moreso than it is true of XHTML to HTML, for instance.
> 
> xAIML is, in fact, a wholehearted embrace of the "embrace and
> extend" 
> attitude.  xAIML just offers a way for people to describe and
> share 
> their embracings and extensions in a slightly more formal and
> useful 
> way.  At present, if some AIML interpreter includes an
additional
> 
> feature, or does not implement a core AIML element, or
implements
> an 
> AIML element differently from other interpreters, you just have
> to hope 
> that the documentation tells you so.  But in this case the
notion
> of 
> "what AIML is" gets a little fuzzy, since, for instance, "what
> AIML is 
> to Pandorabots" may be different from "what AIML is to
> RebeccaAIML".
> 
> xAIML is a way for each interpreter to specify precisely how it
> matches 
> up with the base AIML functionality set.  The idea is that you
> can tell 
> "at a glance" whether a given interpreter has the functionality
> you're 
> looking for, and whether it will be able to use your (x)AIML
set,
> and if 
> not, why.
> 
> At the same time, developers of "xAIML interpreters" can feel
> freer in 
> implementing extended functionality sets, or even altering some
> basic 
> AIML functionality, without a fear of falling out of the
"circle
> of 
> trust" that a standard like AIML provides.  That circle of
trust
> is 
> extremely useful, but it should not be a hindrance.  So xAIML
> provides a 
> suggested path for developers to follow in pursuing innovation
> while 
> retaining "measurable compatibility".
> 
> Brian's message brings up an important category of extensions
to
> or 
> variations on AIML.  There are many "macro extensions" that
> people would 
> like to use in AIML, that can be implemented purely as
> transformations 
> from some alternate markup to AIML, via XSLT.  For instance, 
> "implementing" a <sr2/> element would be as simple as:
> 
> <xsl:template match="sr2">
>    <xsl:element name="srai">
>      <xsl:element name="star">
>        <xsl:attribute name="index">2</xsl:attribute>
>      </xsl:element>
>    </xsl:element>
> </xsl:template>
> 
> Now, if you have an interpreter that will recognize an XSL
> stylesheet 
> directive at the top of your document, and will apply the
> designated 
> stylesheet to the document before loading it, you have the
means
> for 
> creating your own "dialect" that can vary considerably from
> "orthodox" AIML.
> 
> But now that you've got your own dialect, what to do with it?
> You still 
> want to be able to validate it, like you can validate AIML.
> There are 
> so many pieces of software out there -- free and commercial --
> that 
> allow you to validate AIML against a schema...even while you
are
> typing 
> it, so you never need worry about submitting invalid AIML to
your
> 
> interpreter.  But when you've written your own dialect, you
also
> want 
> this same ability.  So you could just write your own schema --
> copy the 
> existing AIML schema and make your changes, for instance.  (Or
> write 
> your own schema.)  But then you'd be firmly "out of the
circle",
> because 
> your dialect would no longer be "true AIML".  What to do?
> 
> The answer (I think) is xAIML, because it provides a structured
> means 
> for expressing the relationship of your derived dialect to its
> parent, 
> and offers a kind of "schema diff" functionality that should
make
> it 
> easier to customize a schema for your own needs.  If you have
an 
> xAIML-Spec for your dialect, then when you feed it to an xAIML 
> interpreter, that interpreter will know how to handle it.
> 
> And I think that the specific matter of "macro extensions" --
all
> those 
> extensions that can be handled with XSLT -- suggests that there
> should 
> be a certain level of xAIML interpreter which consists of
nothing
> more 
> than the ability to apply a designated stylesheet to an input
> document. 
>   It would make a lot of sense to have a designation of
> "pure-transform" 
> or something like that as an available attribute on an xAIML
spec
> element.
> 
> Noel
> 
> Dr. Rich Wallace wrote:
>> Brian, the simple answer to your question is that there does
> exist a body,
>> the AIML Architecture Committee, to debate, propose and adopt
> changes and
>> additions to the AIML spec.   For various reasons, that
> committee has been
>> dormant since 2002, and the 1.0.1 spec has remained frozen in
> place.  One
>> reason has been that the guy we relied on to write the spec
> (who is not a
>> computer scientist, but a "musician") has decided to compete
> with us
>> rather than cooperate, and has now announced his own confusing
> attempt to
>> create an "XAIML" standard right here on this mailing list and
> elsewhere. 
>> I personally don't see any standards efforts moving forward
> until someone
>> starts making more money from AIML applications.  So far the
> various
>> projects have adopted an "embrace and extend" approach, which
> has been
>> fertile ground for innovation.
>>
>> One way to handle a simple macro extension like yours is at
the
> authoring
>> level.  You can have the botmaster write <sr2/> but internally
> expand that
>> expression into <srai><star index="2"/></srai> in the AIML
> file.  That way
>> you get the best of both worlds.  "AIML Authoring Tools" has
> been a
>> subject of ongoing discussion for some time.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>> Below is a category out of the Alice AAA Reducer.aiml file.
>>>
>>> <category>
>>> 	<pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>> 	<template>
>>> 		<srai><star/></srai>
>>> 		<srai><star index="2"/></srai>
>>> 	</template>
>>> </category>
>>>
>>> My question is this...
>>>
>>> If.....  <srai><star/></srai> = <sr/>
>>> Then...  <srai><star index="2"/></srai> = <sr2/>???
>>>
>>> Then this would be oh so much briefer if stated as:
>>>
>>> <category>
>>> 	<pattern>_ HOWEVER *</pattern>
>>> 	<template>
>>> 		<sr/>
>>> 		<sr2/>
>>> 	</template>
>>> </category>
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
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